討論準化:Trái

Trái¹

㐌đã確定xác định The standard Nom has been determined according to the 格撰𡨸喃 and Voting rule. Please leave a message here if you disagree with the result.

討論thảo luận吧và𠬃票bỏ phiếu

The voting was finished and the Standard Nom has been determined (Please do not change the contents). - 𣛤 - 5/9 (55.56%), >60-Day. SaigonSarang (討論) 12:41、次𠀧、𣈜1𣎃4𢆥2014 (ICT)

• 𣡙

• 𧀞

1. I'll have to check that out. It is possible they were pronounced differently , and are therefore two different words that need to be distinguished with two different characters. The fruit trai was pronounced as "blai" in deRhodes' time and some froms of the Nom character still reflect this old pronunciation in their construction e.g. 巴+賴 = ba+lai = blai. I am not sure whether the trai for left contrary or wrong was also pronounced like this, or whether it was in fact a Sino-Vietnamese word. I'll check when I get home! / Every source I have seems to distinguish the two words using 債 as a sound loan for "contrary" (In Chinese it means "debt") and another character for "fruit" based on 果吏 or 𢁑 or 𣛤. / or even 巨over債. / I recall that some Nôm for fruit were typical of southern usage. The older forms all contain 巴, as it indicates the former pronunciation. / Have you seen this btw? ... / Wow…didn't realise you could get deRhodes online. [1] / Trái is on p.38 as blái / (meaning fruit) / Trái for "oppose" is on p.802 under tlái / So two different words originally / Looking around this morning I found one with a 巨 on top of a 債 this will be the character for trái meaning "oppose" / One more thing! It might be useful for you to know / just as tl and bl became tr- / tl also developed from an earlier kl / the reason why there is a 巨 there is because it represents k- / just like the oldest characters for "drum" / this was originally "klống", de Rhodes has tlốū and the oldest character was written 古＋弄 / Now I would say the best character for trái "oppose" is 債, as it is much more common than any of the others / but trái for fruit is more difficult / I have had a look, and the most common one in the dictionariesis not in unicode yet / it's 果吏 / only because it is almost universal / but let me check Kieu and Luc Van Tien / (- It has 𧀞 in Unicode.) / I think I saw that one as well…almost the same / (- Okay, so you prefer 𧀞 for "fruit".) / I will say that. - Kadri Kirikumees ［SaigonSarang (討論) 19:35 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］

• 𣛤

1. it should be different. / hmm sorry I cant input them on this PC...but it should be 果來 for fruit and 賴 for left. - Arben Anthony Saavedra Quitos ［SaigonSarang (討論) 14:23 𣈜13𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
2. they are 2 different Noms / 𣛤: fruit, 賴: wrong. - 朱愛國 ［SaigonSarang (討論) 14:23 𣈜13𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
3. 《嗣德聖製字學解義歌Tự Đức Thánh Chế Tự Học Giải Nghĩa Ca》uses this character. --杜澎栩(Đỗ Bành Hủ)（討論） 10:09 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)
4. The same reason to Keepout. --SaigonSarang (討論) 19:44 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)
5. -Me2hero (討論) 18:08、次𦉱、𣈜22𣎃3𢆥2014 (ICT)

• 𢁑

1. About TRÁI: now I use 債 for LEFT, WRONG and 𢁑 for FRUIT Nguyễn Việt Khôi ［SaigonSarang (討論) 19:42 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］

• 𣡚

1. 賴 trái = bên tả; 𣡚 trái = quả - 成員:Sky Darmos Sky Darmos ［SaigonSarang (討論) 20:08 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］

• 賴

1. [2] - Trung Nguyen ［SaigonSarang (討論) 09:53 𣈜21𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］

Trái³

㐌đã確定xác định The standard Nom has been determined according to the 格撰𡨸喃 and Voting rule. Please leave a message here if you disagree with the result.

討論thảo luận吧và𠬃票bỏ phiếu

The voting was finished and the Standard Nom has been determined (Please do not change the contents). - 賴 - 5/8 (62.50%), >60-Day. SaigonSarang (討論) 12:41、次𠀧、𣈜1𣎃4𢆥2014 (ICT)

• 賴

1. it should be different. / hmm sorry I cant input them on this PC...but it should be 果來 for fruit and 賴 for left. - Arben Anthony Saavedra Quitos ［SaigonSarang (討論) 14:23 𣈜13𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
2. they are 2 different Noms / 𣛤: fruit, 賴: wrong. - 朱愛國 ［SaigonSarang (討論) 14:23 𣈜13𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
3. 杜澎栩(Đỗ Bành Hủ)（討論） 10:09 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)
4. 賴 trái = bên tả; 𣡚 trái = quả - 成員:Sky Darmos Sky Darmos ［SaigonSarang (討論) 20:08 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
5. SaigonSarang (討論) 20:08 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)

• 債

1. I'll have to check that out. It is possible they were pronounced differently , and are therefore two different words that need to be distinguished with two different characters. The fruit trai was pronounced as "blai" in deRhodes' time and some froms of the Nom character still reflect this old pronunciation in their construction e.g. 巴+賴 = ba+lai = blai. I am not sure whether the trai for left contrary or wrong was also pronounced like this, or whether it was in fact a Sino-Vietnamese word. I'll check when I get home! / Every source I have seems to distinguish the two words using 債 as a sound loan for "contrary" (In Chinese it means "debt") and another character for "fruit" based on 果吏 or 𢁑 or 𣛤. / or even 巨over債. / I recall that some Nôm for fruit were typical of southern usage. The older forms all contain 巴, as it indicates the former pronunciation. / Have you seen this btw? ... / Wow…didn't realise you could get deRhodes online. [3] / Trái is on p.38 as blái / (meaning fruit) / Trái for "oppose" is on p.802 under tlái / So two different words originally / Looking around this morning I found one with a 巨 on top of a 債 this will be the character for trái meaning "oppose" / One more thing! It might be useful for you to know / just as tl and bl became tr- / tl also developed from an earlier kl / the reason why there is a 巨 there is because it represents k- / just like the oldest characters for "drum" / this was originally "klống", de Rhodes has tlốū and the oldest character was written 古＋弄 / Now I would say the best character for trái "oppose" is 債, as it is much more common than any of the others / but trái for fruit is more difficult / I have had a look, and the most common one in the dictionariesis not in unicode yet / it's 果吏 / only because it is almost universal / but let me check Kieu and Luc Van Tien / (- It has 𧀞 in Unicode.) / I think I saw that one as well…almost the same / (- Okay, so you prefer 𧀞 for "fruit".) / I will say that. - Kadri Kirikumees ［SaigonSarang (討論) 19:37 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
2. About TRÁI: now I use 債 for LEFT, WRONG and 𢁑 for FRUIT Nguyễn Việt Khôi ［SaigonSarang (討論) 19:42 𣈜14𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］
3. [4] - Trung Nguyen ［SaigonSarang (討論) 09:54 𣈜21𣎃1𢆥2014 (ICT)］